Chapter 08The show is the sales call

A podcast taping is a discovery call the guest enjoys. You research them, you ask about their story and their problems, you listen for forty minutes, and they thank you for it. If they never buy, you still walk away with an hour of content in the market you sell to. I put it this way to a founder in June, and I haven't found a better way since:

and that podcast actually doubles as a sales call. Like a pre interview sales call if that makes sense. And the worst case scenario you end up getting content in your ICP's market. You end up getting a one hour video.

Most founders hear "podcast" and think audience. Downloads, sponsors, becoming the next big show. That's a fine dream and it's someone else's book. In mine, the show has one job: to put me in a room with the people I want to do business with, on terms where they want to be there.

Same architecture

Write down what a good salesperson does on a discovery call. Then write down what a good host does on a show. You'll get the same list:

Like you have to do outreach, you have to invite. You have to listen, you have to do research, you have to ask effective questions, you have to find pain points, you have to, you know, be someone that's helpful

Outreach, invite, research, questions, pain points, helpfulness. Every item on that list is sales. Every item is also hosting. I said it to a founder at the end of a taping, while the stream was still warm:

And we believe that a podcast, the one that you and I just did is actually the same exact architecture as a sales call.

The difference is posture. On a sales call you're asking for their time so you can get something. On a show you're giving them a platform so they can tell their story. Same forty minutes, same questions, opposite feeling in the room.

A ticket to anyone

People overthink the production. I've done hundreds of interviews and the setup is a browser tab:

I have a show which is literally like a fucking StreamYard link, which is no different from Google Meets, like I'm just I'm sitting at my computer, clicking a button, talking to a human being. But because there's like 30 viewers or 20 viewers or whatever, it's a show. I literally have a ticket to go talk to anybody, anybody.

Twenty viewers. That's the threshold. Once there's an audience, even a small one, the call becomes a show. That changes who sits where. When I used to walk into an investor meeting to ask for a cheque, I was below them. When I invite the same investor on my show, we're level:

Whereas when you show up as, hey, look, let me put a spotlight on you, you're like peers, even if it's an investor.

And then something better happens. They start working to impress you:

You're like a podcast host, so they're in fact trying to come on your show. So you're kind of like on equal footing. You're like, and they're trying to impress you, which in our view is the most cool thing

Think about what that does to discovery. A buyer who is trying to impress you tells you the size of the round, the hire they couldn't make, the market they're scared of. A buyer defending against a vendor tells you nothing.

The show is for the guest

So who am I performing for? The guest, far more than the twenty viewers or the algorithm:

The point is not the viewers, even care if I get customers from the viewers or not. I, what I care about is the person that I'm interviewing. I care about, am I, did I do my research? Am I shutting up? Am I thinking about the next question while he's answering, or am I being present?

Those four questions are my scorecard for every taping. Research, silence, presence. The next question can wait. I don't need millions of views for this to work, and I'm honest about that with anyone who asks:

But guess what? One of the 20 people that we talked to on my show, we close. So like that's what matters at the end of the day.

One in twenty, from a show nobody would call famous. That's a sales number, and it's the only one I watch.

The run of show

Here's how I prepare. Before each taping there's a working doc for the guest: a short bio, ten title options for the episode and a list of questions. Twenty-one of them, and there's a reason for the number:

21 questions 21 because I'm also a bitcoiner

I won't ask all twenty-one. The doc tells the guest which ones matter:

There's 21 questions in there. The questions with the stars are the ones that I'll like probably ask for sure. And then the rest are more like just to pace and make sure we hit that 30 minute.

The questions follow one arc, and it never changes. If you watch my episodes you'll hear it every time:

So if you watch any of my interviews, it's always the same three questions I ask. What's your story?

Number two? I asked them what was your aha moment.

And then the third question I ask is, tell me about your business and what's your mission? What's your vision? What's going on? If you guys raise, what are the challenges you're facing?

Story, aha moment, business. I call it the hero's arc. The first part goes way back, before the company: where they grew up, what they studied, whether they were entrepreneurial as a kid. The second part is the turn, the moment they decided to do this:

the second part is more like around your aha moment right like when the sky parted

The third part is the company, and the third part is where the sales call lives.

Discovery the guest enjoys

Go back to the checklist from the pre-interview: budget, authority, need, timeline. Now look at the arc again.

The story tells you who they are and how decisions get made around them. Founders who talk about their co-founder in every answer are telling you there's a second signature. The aha moment tells you what they care about, which is what you'll appeal to later. And the business section, mission and vision and challenges, is a discovery call with better lighting. "If you raise, what are the challenges you're facing?" is a needs question. "Where's the company going in the next year?" is a timeline question. Nobody on a show answers those defensively, because it's their moment:

So, you can ask anything you want because you're the interviewer and you're getting deeper and deeper into the need.

I don't run these questions as a trick. I'm curious, and the curiosity is the method:

When I'm speaking with you, I'm speaking with you. Like I'm trying to get to know you better. Just like a good salesperson would do

There's a second thing happening while I ask. The guest is experiencing my work. I researched them, I wrote the doc, I framed their story. If what I sell is help with growth, the taping is a free sample of how I treat a client:

But what I'm doing with them is I'm actually demonstrating to them what it feels like to work with me.

On a good day I hear it back without asking. One day three guests told me versions of the same thing:

that was the best interview I've ever done. I've never seen anybody Prepared that hard for something

Like they already know how good I am. I'm not trying to sell them on shit. I've already shown them.

Never pitch on air

One hard rule. While the stream is live, I don't pitch. Not a mention, not a soft plug, not a link in the chat:

Like the live stream is just about them. It's about questions.

I pitch on almost every other call I have. The pre-interview gets a one-minute seed. The debrief gets the full conversation. But the show is the gift, and you don't hand someone a gift with a price tag on it. Pitching live would also burn the trust that makes the rest work. Everyone watching would see the spotlight for what it had become, an ad:

not when it's live, obviously. That would be cringe.

The pitch has a place, and it's the five minutes after the stream ends. I build the slot around that. A taping takes thirty minutes on my calendar:

the interviews themselves, they're allocated as 30 minutes is what we allocate for that. And the show itself is maybe 20. So we got five at the beginning, five at the end

Five at the beginning to settle in and check the title. Twenty live. Five at the end, after I kill the stream, and that last five is chapter nine.

Eleven touches

Here's why the taping matters even when nobody buys that day. One meeting rarely closes anything. People need to see you many times before they see you at all:

People need to see you 11 times before they see you for the first time. Well, this method, we have a pre-interview we have the interview, we have a debrief, and every piece of content

Count them: the invite, the pre-interview, the taping, the episode page, the clips, their friends liking the post three days later, the debrief and the short you send them the week after. By the end of two weeks they've seen you more than they've seen most of their own investors:

But these are all just nice reasons to stay top of mind so that after two weeks or whatever, they feel like they know you almost because they've interacted with you six, seven, eight times.

And every one of those touches is a gift. You never had to send a "just checking in" email. You sent them their own episode.

The worst case

Now run the downside. Say the guest never buys, never invests, never introduces you to anyone. What did you lose? Thirty minutes, and you got back an hour of content about a company in the exact market you're trying to reach:

And worst case scenario with us, you just created marketing material. Like, even if you don't close that person.

The guest shares it too, because the episode is about them:

not to mention the guest shares it in their network as well because it's about them.

Their network is full of people who look like them. Which means the miss puts you in front of the next ten prospects. That's the asymmetry. A bad discovery call is a wasted half hour. A bad taping is still an asset.

Try this week

Take the three questions you ask a buyer on a discovery call. If you don't have three, use these: What's your budget for this? Who else is involved in the decision? What happens if you don't fix this by the end of the quarter?

Now rewrite each one as a question a host asks a guest. The test is simple: would they be glad to answer it on camera? For the three above:

1. Budget becomes "Where are you putting your money this year, and what are you most excited to build with it?" 2. Authority becomes "Tell me about your co-founder. How did you two meet, and how do you split the work?" 3. Timeline becomes "Where is the company in twelve months if everything goes right?"

Then build your run of show for one thirty-minute slot: five minutes to settle in, twenty minutes live on the arc (story, aha moment, business), five minutes after the stream ends. Write the twenty-one questions. Star the five you'll ask for sure, and make sure at least two of the starred ones live in the business section.

Book one taping with someone you'd love to have as a customer. Ask the questions. Don't pitch on air. Afterward, write down everything you learned about their budget, their decision makers, their need and their timeline.

Then compare it to your last discovery call. Which one told you more?